Onyango Interview

Elizabeth Atieno Onyango is a human rights defender and feminist at the Coast Sex Workers Alliance (COSWA) in Kenya. Her work primarily focuses on the inclusion of women sex workers in society, legislative rights and reform for the marginalized. COSWA holds the ultimate goal of fostering a “just, resilient, and socially inclusive society for sex workers.” The grassroots organization is primarily led by women sex workers from all six counties of the coastal region of Kenya. Its team includes young sex workers, HIV positive sex workers, sex workers who use drugs, and transgender women. The website lays out their core values as confidentiality, accountability, equality, and teamwork. The organization’s work involves conducting research with the goal of creating programs for sex workers, educating about and providing products to help aid recovery from sexually transmitted diseases, particularly HIV, as well as generally attempting to provide sexual and reproductive health services to those in need. Additionally, the organization participates in local activism and engages in policy and advocacy processes for rights for sex workers.
Ms. Onyango has received training from Akina Mama Wa Afrika, an international Pan-African feminist organization that trains women to be able to participate in leadership through education programs, resource and research, providing platforms for advocacy and movements to influence politics and legislation, and arts and creative expression. Their core values are feminism, pan Africanism, diversity and inclusion, integrity, solidarity, intersectionality, and learning. Through Elizabeth’s training with this organization, she was able to implement several local sexual and reproductive health rights programs for sex workers.
Elizabeth Onyango advocates for the increase of both harm reduction interventions for Kenyan sex workers who use drugs and equitable access to HIV prevention. As a sexual and reproductive health rights advocate, Elizabeth has participated in the International Community of Women Living with HIV (ICW-Global) Young Advocates Task Force to form the #NowWeKnowCampaign.This movement is an online campaign that aims to eradicate violence against women living with HIV. Elizabeth has aided in the collaborationof Kenyan organizations regarding the health and human rights of sex workers who use drugs. She accomplished this by conducting a needs-based assessment among drug-using sex workers in Mombasa, Lamu, and Kilifi as well as training more than eighty sex workers on HIV prevention technologies. Elizabeth specifically advocates for the adoption of the dapivirine vaginalring through her slogan “Put a Ring On It.” This new method of HIV prevention allows for female sex workers to take back power and autonomy over their bodies through the discreet silicone tool that goes unnoticed by their partners and clients, and releases dapivirine at the site of potential infection.
Sex work is defined by Elizabeth Onyango as “the consensual exchange of sex for services, money or goods between two consenting adults.” She explained to us that the age of consent in Kenya is 18, so they do not acknowledge minors as sex workers, as they cannot legally consent to sexual acts. The age of sex workers was a concept that Onyango shared is very relevant to the wage that they make and the way that they are treated by clients. There is a wide variety in the wage that sex workers earn in Kenya, and it greatly depends on social factors such as age, other occupations, and place of business. Elizabeth shared in our interview that older sex workers may have the wisdom and experience to know how much is a reasonable wage, and know how to negotiate that.However, many clients prefer women who are younger. She also stated that sex workers will often experience complications with wages because clients often do not want to use protection,and will pay less if they have to. Finally, if sex workers work in a brothel where some of their pay is taken for things like rent andother such commodities, they may make less than a sex worker who works independently or in more high-end areas. Reasons such as these are why sex workers deserve policies and programs that allow them to makea decent wage in a way that is safe and does not take advantage of vulnerable populations.
Onyango is heavily involved in advocacy for policy change. A commonly mentioned term during our interview is “SRHR,” or sexual and reproductive health rights. This concept is the amalgamation of the four values of sexual health, reproductive health, sexual rights, and reproductive rights. According to the Guttmacher institute, sexual and reproductive health relies on sexual and reproductive rights becoming widely accessible. These rights include the ability to “have their bodily integrity, privacy and personal autonomy respected, freely define their own sexuality, including sexual orientation and gender identity and expression, decide whether and when to be sexually active, choose their sexual partners,have safe and pleasurable sexual experiences, decide whether, when and whom to marry, decide whether, when and by what means to have a child or children,and how many children to have, have access over their lifetimes to the information, resources, services and support necessary to achieve all the above, free from discrimination, coercion,exploitation and violence.” Onyango is particularly involved in community outreach, specifically mobilizing efforts to provide technology and wellness advancements to those in need. Being involved in a “project under the International Aid Society,” Ms. Onyango partners with the organization “to do community advocacy for the new HIV prevention technology that is the (Dapivirine) ring, the DVRs.” Her advocacy and efforts to promote change have helped save and improve the lives of countless people who are mistreated, exploited, and struggling.
While great strides have been made in health care reform for sex workers, the job is far from finished. In Kenya and most other countries, sex work remains criminalized. Criminalization of sex work is the act of making sex work, such as selling sexual acts, illegal. This can create dangerous situations for sex workers, as they are not protected under law and their jobs are not regulated. They also face high levels of scrutiny from police officers, often experiencing violence and sexual abuse. Due to this and many other factors, the relationships between new clients and sex workers is usually that of fear and mistrust because of the possibility of danger. The relationships between regular clients and sex workers is generally positive, but there are boundaries in place such as withholding certain personal information. One of the many risks associated with being a sex worker is the disregard by most clients of protection, some even insisting that it not be used. This can create a plethora of issues, such as risk of pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases. One solution to this issue is the dapivirine ring, a vaginal ring made out of silicone that releases dapivirine to reduce risk of HIV. Elizabeth Atieno Onyango helped create the “Put a ring on it” campaign to promote the dapivirine ring and push for funding. One of the benefits that Onyango mentioned is that this ring is virtually undetectable by sexual partners, meaning that they can be protected from HIV without having to disclose to or ask a partner to use protection. This is one of Onyango’s most profound and widespread projects, impacting thousands of people.
There are many social barriers that prevent easy access to protection from HIV. These barriers usually come across in the form of stigmas, as well as censorship of sex. The Dapivirine ring provides a way for people to take ownership of their bodies and protection against HIV. Unlike a female condom or an external male condom, the ring can be inserted without the knowledge of the client, and even if they refuse to wear a condom,the female sex worker is still protected from the STD. COVID’s impact on the sex work industry has made it so workers are less able to find willing clients due to the fear of the disease being spread. Additionally, letting strangers into your space poses a threat of contamination that may transfer illness to workers. Specifically in communal spaces, there is a higher risk of the transferring of illnesses. One such communal space is a brothel, an establishment where people can solicit sex work. Usually there is an owner of the brothel who each worker has to pay in order to live and work there. The dynamic between “high end sex workers” and “regular sex workers” built on how much they earn and age . Sex workers with experience typically can negotiate for safe sex and higher payment while the newest and youngest sex workers make much less. There are also high end brothels and low end brothels where you will make more or less money. Sex workers that work in the street for example are an example of a“low end sex worker” because it is very dangerous. Creating communities that are made up of people experiencing similar threats to their safety is a potential solution to the increasing danger that sex workers are subject to. They are at risk in terms of their mental health, physical health, and the safety of other workers in their community. It is important to recognize this when examining the many social factors and challenges that sex workers face. Through advocacy and community outreach, the condition of sex workers can be improved and the income from their job can be acknowledged as a viable career and provide economic stability to their lives. Through collective effort, we can movetowards a future in which sex workers are able to live their lives without risk of harm, stigma, and mistreatment. With the help of leaders such as Elizabeth Onyango, this can be possible.
Bibliography
“N/A.” To have a just, resilient and socially inclusive society for sex workers. Accessed December 6, 2023. https://coswakenya.org.
“\/.” 2023. YouTube. https://www.akinamamawaafrika.org/amwa-at-a-glance/.
“Accelerate Progress: Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights for All — Executive Summary.” n.d. Guttmacher Institute. Accessed December 6, 2023.
https://www.guttmacher.org/guttmacher-lancet-commission/accelerate-progress-executive -summary.
Transcript
My name is Michaela. I’m Hannah. I’m Tyler. Can you hear us okay? Yes, I can. You can go on. Okay. Okay, so just for our first question, we were wondering where you’re originally from, where you grew up, and where you are now. Can you hear us okay? Yes. Sorry, I’m just trying to set up my Internet just in case the WiFi stays with me. All right, no worries. I had your first question, so I’ll just quickly respond. Perfect.
So my name is Elizabeth Atieno Onyango. I was born and raised in Mombasa County. It’s a county from the coastal region of Kenya. And my ancestral home is in the Nyaza part. So that means I come from somewhere called Wganda. I am Luo, but I was born and raised in Mombasa County. I went to school in Mombasa. I am also going to college in Mombasa right now.
What are you studying in college? Did I miss anything? No, I don’t think so. That was great. I was wondering what you’re studying in college. Oh. So I’m at the Mount Kenya university of Kenya. I am doing a course on community development and social work. Interesting. And I work with an organization called Sex Work Alliance. It’s asex workers led organization that is based in the Coast region of Kenya. So the coast region has six counties and Costa works across the entire region. But because of so many regions that we are not actively in, and this is because they are hard to reach, they are. So we are a hundred percent. Every chance we get we have sex work accountability activists. I am a feminist and I work a lot in HIV prevention advocacy. Can you hear us? Yes, I can. Was this my method? I’m not sure, actually. Yeah.
Well, how did you get into being a sex worker advocate and working for the company you do
today? Okay, so I started out with my work. I actually had no idea what I was doing. So someone who is a peer, like someone who also does sex work, took me to be registered in this group. It was an LGBTQ led organization, Fast. That’s how I started. So I was registered in that group. And then we were just taken through a lot of training about human rights advocacy, like, just so many things around SRHR, but not in this. And then back. That was in 2019. And then towards the end of 2019, COVID-19 happened. So at that time, I was also a student at some school in Mombasa County. So when we recorded our first case of Coronavirus as a country, the then president gave some directive that schools and everything else should close to ensure that everyone is safe. So when we closed school, I had nothing to do. So most of the time I was home. So I approached the director of the Cost Sex Workers Alliance and requested, if I can just do some volunteer work at the so that’s how I joined. I just joined in as a volunteer. And then I remember I was given a lot of field work like I did, I volunteered as a field officer. But then while I was there, a part from doing sex work, maybe at night and then having just on call clients, I just started learning a lot because I was exposed to so much training. The organization would organize training for sex workers. There were a lot of activities going on online for Key population, and I just spent so much of my time doing these training sessions, participating in these activities, because I remember as a volunteer, I only had three days. I was going to work for three days, and mostly it was from 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. so I had a lot of extra time and also doing sex work. That time was also hard because even bars and places where there was a lot of gatherings were closed to ensure that they minimized the spread of COVID So the sex work industry suffered a lot because the hospitals were shut down and you can’t risk being exposed to
the community during the day that you are doing sex work. So I just spent a lot of my time just
participating in these training sessions and participating in some physical activities. And then I saw a call for an application for a Pan Africa feminist led organization. It’s called Akinamama Africa and they hosted an online advocacy training for SRHR. That was actually my first time hearing about SRHR in 2021. And so I remember even doing my application, I will Google some of the questions and try to figure out what they meant. So I did the application and I got in. And so my passion for SRHR grew from there.I went through that training. It was a six weeks online training. We graduated. They gave us an opportunity to even implement at the community what we had learned. And yeah, that’s how it kind of all happened for me. And from the training,I just kind of positioned myself and I told myself, yeah, this is it. I am an Afro feminist, I’m passionate about SRHR, and of course, HIV is a feminist issue and part and parcel of SRHR. So that’s how I found the interconnection between those three things. And my passion grew from there.
So what types of sex workers do you work with exactly? How would you describe the work they do and what kind of locations do they work in? And how much of the money would you say that they get to keep themselves from sex work? Yes. Okay, so maybe first I can start by just defining what sex work is. So sex work is the consensual exchange of sex for services, money or good between two consenting adults. So when we say two consenting adults, for us in Kenya, the age of majority or the age of consent is 18 years. So at Cost Sex Workers Alliance we work with sex workers who are aged 18 years and beyond anyone below the age of 18. We usually refer them to offices like the Gender, the Sexual and Gender Office and those are different cases. We don’t acknowledge them as sex workers because we know that they are minors and they can also not
consent. So that when they do sex work, it won’t be defined as sex work. So that’s number one.
And with sex workers, like in all our diversities. So we have LBQ sex workers, we have transgender sex workers, but at the Cost Sex Workers Alliance. We are female led, so every individual who identifies as female and they are a sex worker, we work with them. Although we partner with different organizations. Female identifying sex worker. So we have LBQ sex workers, transgender women sex workers. We have sex workers who use drugs. These are female sex workers who use drugs. We have sex workers with disabilities. We have hard to reachsex workers. These are like maybe sex workers from high-end massage parlors. We have sex workers who are also in high end brothels. And we have sex workers who they work on camera. And this one became really cutting during COVID because everything was closed down. So many turned into camgirls. And then for some reason, they just decided to even now, after COVID, they prefer to be cam girls, like to continue watching on video. I don’t want to call them come girls because I don’t know if that’s the correct term to use. And your question about how much sex worker earns, I think it’s a social thing. And socially, there’s classes, there’s social classes. So it happens even in sex work, the upper class and then the lower class, and most of the time, the sex workers who earn a lot of money. And this one, it depends from context to context. So in some instances, you’ll find that there are older sex workers, maybe from the age of, let’s say, 27 and above. They know how to negotiate for good payment and they know how to negotiate for self sex. They know how to have themselves.They know how to place a price for what they want so at least they get a good pay. And then we have the young sex workers and like young sex workers 18 to 24 years. This is a cohort that almost every sex worker-led organization is really passionate about and interested in because of just the many challenges they face and one of them being poor negotiation skills. So these girls, the  majority of them, get a very low payment because they cannot negotiate for good pay. And sometimes there’s clients who will come and they don’t want to use protection. And they might even tell you, for example, if you want to use a condom, then if I were to give you 1000 Kenya shillings, I’m going to cut it down to 500 Kenya shillings. So that’s half of it. But there are many factors that determine how much a sex worker will earn. Also, there’s sex workers who work from the brothels. And these brothels are owned. For example, I can be an owner of a brothel which has like five rooms. So that means there’s five female sex workers living in that brothel. And they give me rent. And this rent is not paid monthly. So maybe you pay 200 shillings per day to the brothel owner and you don’t even like it. Maybe you’ve had one client of like 500 Kenya shillings. So that means you give 200, you remain with 300. So also that factor also affects the amount of money that you will get as a sex worker and the brutal based sex worker and a sex worker who just hassles on their own. The difference in terms of payment and earning is very wide because if I hustle on my own, I don’t have anyone to pay money for for rent. But someone who is brutal if I get 500 and she gets 500, I have the complete500. She only has 300 because she has to pay. And then another factor again,the issue about age is a double edged sword because it cuts both sides. So there’s the advantage that the aged sex workers are able to negotiate for good pay. And then there’s also that aspect where clients now prefer young sex workers. So we can be on the road, like we can be working on the streets for street based sex workers. We can be on the streets.I’m 27, someone is 35. All clients are drawn towards me because I’m young. So you might end up earning like you’re getting so many clients and the one who is 35 years ends up just accepting whoever just because maybe they have been there for a long time and no client is coming for them. And then there is also for the way older, older sex
workers, there’s also the issue of health and also apart from health, there’s also the issue of family. Maybe you are raising a family or you are the sole breadwinner in and how you’re looking after maybe.
Where there are different business ideas from everyone, different businesses from poultry farming to fashion clothing to jewelry it was a lot to experience. So in my own perspective I have interacted with people who identify as sex workers and they are in their sixties and I’ve never had anyone say that they want to quit. It is a choice that someone just wakes up every day, because once you start doing sex work, you live the experience,so it becomes like a part of your identity. And it’s not something that you wake up one day and choose to like,for example, I just wake up one day and say, I’m no longer Liz, but Liz is part of my identity. Maybe you can improve it but you cannot forego that part of yourself. So I will say I have never seen anyone leaving but I have insights of what other economic activities they engage in as sex workers. There are small businesses, there are also sex workers who are doctors, bankers. They choose sex workers because part of their side hustle times are hard in Kenya. You cannot just survive with one economic activity or earning activity. For myself I work at post work but then I do sex work so there’s a lot and yeah, I think most of them are business owners. In fact business owners are not even employed. They run shops like M Pesa shops. We as an organization are also thinking of a sustainability plan for our members and for ourselves because we were just reluctant in terms of sustainability. But when COVID-19 hit that is when we now started thinking because everything was just shutting down. So what are you going to do? Just like every other industry and business even the sex work industry is shut down. So we started thinking as an organization because we have members who are sex workers and the organization itself is 90% led by sex workers. So we were thinking of other ways in case there is another pandemic, in case there is something else, another emergency that happened. What are we going to do? So we went again to the communities and people came up with a lot of ideas. There was an idea to start something called staff where you can just do small savings and you end up getting soft loans with very little interest and you can have a flexible period of repayment to either replenish our businesses or even start businesses. And that’s how most of the businesses that sex workers do now were born. And we also like some of us even went through training from our partner organization who trained people on maybe soap making skills. And you are sitting there in your brothel room as you wait for your clients. You have your stops, you are selling or maybe you have a closing business somewhere that you are waiting on money and just a lot mostly it’s businesses. So what kind of relationships and what kind of clients do sex workers typically get and what kind of relationships do they have with those clients? Okay, so with clients, there’s some sex workers who have regular clients. So when I say regular clients, I mean a client that you get to see from time to time. This is someone you know and you sell sexual services to them every now and then. So that’s your regular client and you might want to maintain good relations with them because no matter what happens, you always have these clients and these types of clients. Sometimes a sex worker might even offer services and the client doesn’t have enough money. They can have a mutual agreement like, okay, it’s 5000, but because I have 2500, I’ll give you the rest next week. They have very good relations with their regular clients and then we just have a very wide pool of clients. So there is let’s say everyone is a client of sex workers, but we have clients who are police officers, we have clients who are teachers. Like, for example, last week teachers were in Mombasa for a meeting because we are closing school. So I think.
School closure and everything meeting was happening in Mombasa. So mombasa was flooded with a lot of potential clients and everyone was like yeah, teachers are in know, hang out in these areas and stuff but these are the clients that you only meet once in a like it might be a teacher who has come from a county that is 8 hours away from Mombasa. So they come here, you’ll never see them so there’s no need of maintaining relations and then there’s clients that are service providers in the community like the chief police officers, healthcare workers, don’t quote me even people who are married. You know how the research about HIV came to be, right?Like in Europe when there was a lotof HIV amongst married people and then they decided to install cameras in toilets blah blah like how it went. So everyone denies that they buy sex but it’s so funny how the sex work industry continues to grow. Like we are not selling to ourselves, we have clients so there’s that but then there are also other we are the embodiment of stigma, of discrimination of GBV because also sex work is criminalized in Kenya and in so many other countries, I think only three countries have fully decriminalized sex work. So because of that factor and for example, a client who is like a police officer, let’s say I’m giving an example. This is someone who really knows the law and knows that you are a criminalized population and the fact that you are selling sex can be used against you in the court of law. And you can get up to 14 years imprisonment. So they take advantage of that and sometimes they refuse to pay sex workers or maybe for example you have agreed to vaginalsex and then someone forces you into anal sex and you cannot report anywhere. So there’s also that fear and mistrust type of relationship. So majority of us you are just like you are going to do sex work but you really hope
and pray that this one is a good client. They are going to pay me, they are not going to rape me. We go through these fears every single day. They’re not going to rape me, they are not going to kill me. Because we’ve had so many cases of sex workers who are murdered just because they maybe demanded for a better pay, demanded for the use of protection and they’re harassed, they are abused by the client. So I will say the good interpersonal relations we have with our regular clients, the ones that we feel like we genuinely know, but then we fear the clients that we meet on a daily basis. Like you just meet them one off. You’re not sure. And remember, you are not going to sell text or do the transaction in public. You have to either get a room or maybe drive to their home and you don’t know if you are going to even come back. So we decided that we do a lot of training and we really make sure that we talk to each other sex workers. And there’s training about safety and security both online and physical. But there’s also that aspect of being your sister’s keeper because we can only control the security here. But then there is that bigger part where by 05:00 P.m. Costa is closed, the coastal line is off. So what do teachers do when they are out there? Like maybe at the brothel or on the street? Someone, a friend of yours is picked by a car or in a room screaming, what do you do? So we always ask ourselves to be like each other’s keeper to ensure that everyone is safe at home. So, yeah, to answer your question, just in summary, the relationship is that of trustwith regular clients,but with most of our clients, the relationship is that of fear and mistrust. Thank you for sharing. That is our next question. We were wondering what exactly your organization focuses on. And particularly we kind of looked into your work and we saw that you coined the phrase put a ring on it with the Dapivirine Vaginal ring. And we were hoping that you could kind of go into a little bit more detail about that and the process behind that. Okay, so the Coast sex workers alliance does a lot of work. So we started in 2015. And when we started, our main advocacy tool was to do street patches because the founders of like, they were pushed to start Koswa because there were so many cases of sex workers being killed, sex workers being brutally murdered and raped in this area in Mombasa, and most of these cases were going unaddressed. So sex workers from Mombasa County came together and just decided, now enough is enough. And they started going to the streets to match and to just demand a stop to these killings and a stop to all these human rights violations that were happening to sex workers. But then after the street matches, the media will be very excited because these are people who are criminalized and they are boldly on the streets. What do they want? And I remember there used to be a lot of media misquoting some of the speeches from these leaders and it caused a lot of debate. But then the leaders were like, so after the matches, what’s next? Because when these matches were being done, there were other gaps that they kept on identifying. Like why would the sex worker be raped and not go to report? This is apart from you being a sex worker, this is the GBV case and you have to report it. It is punishable by law. So people started by identifying the gap. So Kosoa started doing the right campaigns. And just like that it grew and it became more structured together. And now Coswa prides itself in doing health and human rights advocacy for sex workers at the Coast region and also feminist movements building at the Coast region. So your question around the dapivirine ring on its project? This is a project under the International Aid Society. So we are partnering with them to do community advocacy for the new HIV prevention technology that is the ring, the DVRs. So we as sex workers account for a very big percentage of new HIV infections in our country and also even
globally key populations account for a majority of the new HIV prevention of new HIV infection. Sorry, but then there is little to no inclusion or engagement of KPS in HIV programming and HIV prevention advocacy and even product rollout. So we took advantage of the Dappering Vaginal ring. When it came out, we felt like it was an advocacy opportunity for us as female sex workers to be meaningfully engaged in product rollout. Given that we are a target, we are part of the targeted population with this product and we said yeah let’s do it. And we did a proposal to IAS which was accepted and also in Kenya we launched it’s called the Catalyst Mosaic Study. So where they are studying two new HIV prevention technologies and that is now the ring, the Dapivirine Vaginal ring and the Injectable Breath. However, for the injectable press there are a lot of issues going on around it in the country with the pharmaceutical and poison. So it is not yet in the study, but it was supposed to be included. But the study is going on with the ring. So we said we will now do it in conjunction with the country. So for us we are doing community advocacy targeting young sex workers aged 18 to 24 years. So we are trying to sensitize people about what the ring is. Why is it even important to make sure that this ring gets to us as Kenyan women and also how even to use the ring and the advantages of using the ring. We as sex workers, we see it as like we term it as a multi prevention technology because we think that it’s not only going to prevent us from HIV female sex workers. It works only through vaginal sex though. So it’s for these women. We really are trying to push for it because we believe that it will not only reduce the HIV infection, but it’s also going to reduce the sexual and gender based violence that are related to negotiating for the use of protection for the people who are so scared, especially young sex workers. For example, you are on campus, you depend on your parents, you live with your parents and maybe you want to choose a HIV prevention method. Prep is very physical. The oral prep, it’s bottled like someone can just see it and read and know this is Prep.
So you get scared. You’re like, if I get this bread, someone from my house sounds like that’s dangerous. And parents love to assume that their children are not having sex. So it’s also going to cause that mistrust between your parents or guardian and you or even just chaos at home. And also condoms like the condom, we only see theevolution in male condoms. Like they’ve been very favorable for the male gender, like they are flavored. Some of them are ribbed for extra pleasure. There’s different packaging. But the female condom is Stagnant. It is just there. Since it came, there has never been any modification to the female condom. The text able Prep is not yet there. Pep is not easily accessible. So we are pushing for the Pivoting vaginal ring. So as women we can also have a lot of supermarket choices when it comes to HIV prevention. That’s why we are doing the ring advocacy because we know when it gets here, we are going to have very limited cases of someone being bitten up because of a client saying “I’m not giving you extra money because you want to use a condom.” Because the ring, when you insert it in your vagina, is discreet. Your partner doesn’t even know that you have the ring on. And it gives women back the power over our bodies, choices and agency. And yeah, that is all about putting a ring on its project. Thank you. Thank you so much. Unfortunately, the two of us here. We have to go because we have our course registration in a few minutes, but we just wanted to say thank you so much. And Michaela here is going to be able to wrap things up with you and just do a little bit further discussion. But thank you so much for sharing with us. It’s been so helpful. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It thank you too, guys. Bye. Have a great thank you so much.